Teaching a Back Up
#11
LookIng good Chris.
Shaping is fun
So I think Ember might think the look up is being rewarded.
The reason I did Draco backing into a mirror was so I could see where his back feet were.
I would see if you can hold out and "mark" both feet back on the target. If that is too much of a leap then she doesn't understand it is a backward movement you are looking forward. So then "mark" a backward movement.
Shaping is hard, but so much fun. I have laughed so hard many a time, saying"oh, that's what you took from this" because I thought I trained something else. You are doing great and she is a willing partner.
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#12
Poor Jasper LOL! Yes, do let me know! Glad to be an inspiration. I'm so terrible at this but I have a dog who is also terrible at it (no creativity with shaping whatsoever between the two of us), so we fumble through together. This is the first time that I'm finding the frustrating part more fun than frustrating!

QD You are right, of course! Went back and watched the video and wow, am I so off on my timing! Looks like the only well timed mark is the very last one. I'm going to have to find something as a mirror, but I don't have anything around here. Maybe Walmart will have a cheap one I can lean up against the wall Big Grin
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Gotcha Day: November 14, 2015
Vet-Listed Birthday: May 2, 2014
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#13
I love watching the videos. Ember looks so happy! I often worry that I am training something wrong but with Mattie I have realized that any time she is engaged and happy it is a success. And I am totally clueless when it comes to training (my 15 year old daughter is an expert compared to me) but Mattie and I fumble along and we enjoy playing together. Even if you think your training sessions aren't perfect I get a ton of value from them.
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#14
Oh Ember, you are awfully hard on yourself. You have a much better understanding of so many concepts than I do. Jeez, I don't really understand what "shaping" is hahaha. I just do things the way I have always done them, I'm a fossil with the exception of modernising my thoughts in respect to +R methods. The issues you experience and work with, I look harder for in my training.ie: question myself, am I applying pressure I am not aware of, that perhaps isn't the best way.
In working with Jasper today I examined more closely. Does my method apply undue frontal pressure (for him) ? Well, for Jasper no I don't think so but thanks to your conversations I was more aware of "what is Jaspers comfort zone and are there any negative signal ?"
So, I proceeded by using my sawn off office chair (with rollers) and "bang" we are successful right from the start. Maybe 30" in front of him is the point at which he steps back and then immediate treat. Use my legs to push myself backwards and he automatically moves forward with me and off we go again. We only did a 5-7 minute session and have done 3 of such today. I don't use any target mat for the back feet to go to because my long term goal is that when I ask for back it will mean keep going back until I indicate otherwise. My thoughts are that if I train him to a target then I will only have to un-train the target.
I did a little experiment with standing up and leaning forward to put my closed fists either side and this caused Jasper to look up and sit so I went back to my stool. I found this interesting because when I trained Max with this I didn't have the stool and he learned the trick with me in a standing position.
So, for today we have achieved approx 2' backward, that's all I want for now until I proof the cue word "back" (which I use right from the start.) When this is reliable I will attach a hand signal.

Haha, "poor Jasper" noooooo. Thanks to Auntie Ember he got extra (overdue) attention today and Max got soooo many more treats tossed to the other end of the room just to keep him out of our face. At one point I had duel back ups with them both in on the game. Max is a crack up, it's like "look at me, look at me, I'm doing it too". Yeah, yeah, just keep going buddy I'm busy with your brother. I often crate one while working with the other but other times it's just all in.

TMM is absolutely right. Ember really does appear to be enjoying herself and that is the main thing.
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#15
Trifan is right you are way to hard on yourself. Ember is totally in on the game and you are both having fun. Shaping is a skill. You are doing great. Remember she is engaged and repeating what she is taking from this. So it it is training. It takes a confident dog to play at shaping.
Seriously I have laughed so hard when I realized what I had actually shaped in Draco and it wasn't what I thought I was shaping. Even funnier you can shape something else in other than what you intended.
I shaped a dumbbell hold I was so pleased with it until I videos it and realized I had also shaped a walk backwards with it. So Draco now holds a dumbbell while walking backwards, hilarious.
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#16
Oh Chris
Next session at Fenzi.
Sue Ailsby is teaching shaping, She is so much fun. Try it
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#17
You guys are right, as always. Always in the back of my mind is how much I just don't know. I guess it's the student in me. It does my heart so well to look at the videos and see how happy my dog is, and that I can be silly with her without freaking her out. Oh my goodness you guys have been witness to quite the journey! Thank you so much for sharing with me!

Trifan, your boys are amazing and awesome! I get that same "Mom mom mom over here, look I sat faster than Kairo over here over here say it again!" when I have the theatrical husky around. I can totally get it, and I have the same response - "good for you" LOL. Wow 2' in a day! Such a smart lad. Between the two of us our dogs are going to be "fat and sassy" as my mom likes to say!

TMM I love hearing about your progress with Mattie! Thank you for following us too. Ember does enjoy it, doesn't she!

QD that still makes me laugh about Draco! I can totally see how that happens! I've got another video, changing up techiniques - and I really think I'm going to end up with a "back into a sit" if I am not super careful!

So first, new observation. I tried it without the mat again because I really don't want to be training two ideas at once - she can barely handle one. And the observation is that without something to make her think about her back feet, her reaching between my feet ends in a fold-back sit or fold-back down without any foot movement at all. I went back and watched that last video again and I definitely still see the inclination in how she moves. She likes everything tucked under her and doesn't "stand" well - it's either motion or down/sit. This also has come about in the little bit of play we had today.

So what do I do? I make myself get creative.





VERY sloppy, as it was intended as an experiment only. Goal: To use a "shoo back" motion from heal position, first as a lure then shaping the hand motion. Then I reorient myself slowly so that the hand motion (once learned, of course) is in front of me instead of behind me. No work on her part.

Possible issues - still getting that sit (obvious, fist over head, what do I think will happen LOL!). Can work on that.
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Gotcha Day: November 14, 2015
Vet-Listed Birthday: May 2, 2014
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#18
Yahoo 7up Cheer Woohoo, She did a couple of really good backups in that vid. Well done, creating a method that best suits Ember, it's a little bit "Do As I Do" isn't it. Yes, I  can see how quickly that sit comes in and noticed she still got a reward. I probably wouldn't reward that but only reward when butt doesn't go to ground. Reward timing is so important in capturing exactly the behaviour you want and Missy doesn't need anymore encouragement to put that bum down LOL Be patient and don't ask for or wait for anything more than that first backward motion and reward. This is where a mirror is super helpful because you capture that motion instantly. Once she really get's that the backward motion is what you are asking for you can built on that.
I think she does better without the mat. In other vids I think she was too hung up on the mat. I feel like you are right on the edge of nailing this. Bouncing

I think having a mirror would be super helpful and might be worth seeing what you can find without breaking the bank.
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