New dog not getting on with our other dog

[sheepmonkey]

Hi

I'm new to the forums so apologies if this is in the wrong place.

We adopted a one and a half year old border collie yesterday. He's completely lovely and sweetG gets on fine with one of our dogs, and all the other dogs at the rescue centre. But unfortunately our three year old pug is having problems with him. They met before we rescued him, and got on fine. Mostly ignored each other, but we weren't too worried because the pug generally reacts like that to dogs anyway.

Most of the time they're fine, both getting on with their own thing, but a couple of times they've gotten pretty close to coming to blows. It starts with the collie staring usually, and we try to distract them before it can go further, but sometimes there's no build up at all. Just a quick lunge, no growling or lip tightening or anything. Luckily we were able to intervene before they made contact.

Both are unneutered males, could this be part of the problem?

Any suggestions?

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[Vicky]

It could be part of your problem, some male dogs that have been done will go for an unneutered male dog so the same could go for you two, what is your other dog female or male?? as you said he gets along with one of your other dogs but not the pug.

[sheepmonkey]

(09-05-2010 01:56 PM)Vicky Wrote:  It could be part of your problem, some male dogs that have been done will go for an unneutered male dog so the same could go for you two, what is your other dog female or male?? as you said he gets along with one of your other dogs but not the pug.

Yes, she's a spayed female cross, a bit larger than our new addition so they're much closer in size, and quite evenly matched when they play.

[LadyDaniela]

I believe that part of the problem is that they are both unaltered, and the pug is feeling insecure in his place in the pack with this new addition. Try walking them together, (tired dog is a happy dog) or giving them both a bath (not at the same time, but sometimes when both parties have to endure something humiliating like a bath, they are more focused on getting over their recent trauma than eating each other)

[trickytrip]

I agree that it is because they are not neutered, along with walking them together perhaps getting them neutered together will ease the tensions. I don't see the reason for dogs to be left intact, though percentages are low for testicular or ovarian/uterine cancer it is just one more thing to go wrong. If you are not going to breed there is really no reason to leave them intact, and I really think it helps a lot with both males and females.

[RobD-BCactive]

(09-06-2010 04:28 PM)trickytrip Wrote:  If you are not going to breed there is really no reason to leave them intact, and I really think it helps a lot with both males and females

Neutering can have side effects and the touted health benefits are often exagerated, the health drawbacks under-played to avoid the problem of uncontrolled breeding. The KC BC breed standard also specifies intact males. In UK the experts seem to have a more targetted approach than in US where neutering appears to be regarded as a no-brainer. In general f there is not a sexual element causing undesirable behaviour, how would neutering help? (not saying testosterone is not fuelling this case )

In this case, 2 males, 1 female, with the younger new male being larger and more active than a pug (there's a reason why wild & feral wolves/dogs don't have flattened faces), it would not surprise anyone if there are squabbles.

Don't you want stability, via a stable pack hierarchy? The admittedly older book with case studies I have read on similar in home aggression, talks about neutering 1 dog first, where they're fairly closely matched.

I think you ought to consider consulting a good qualified behaviourist to look closely at the situation, if it persists. There may be as Lady Daniela hinted ways to manage the situation better, and avoid mistakes threatening long term outcome. On this forum, somone in recent months had to give up a young collie bitch, due to aggro problems, with an encumbant pug, which probably had the (constant companion) role the Collie naturally aspired to, where it did turn nasty with significant injuries.

[Tassle]

I personally would be looking for issues such as possessiveness (resource Guarding - toys/food/places/people) before rushing in to neutering.

Often dogs cannot cope with the collie 'eye' so your Pug may be responding to this, alternatively, it could possibly be the fact the New boy is playing with the bitch?

Either way...I would advise you to look locally for a decent trainer/behaviouist who can come over and help through observing your home situation and the individual dogs.

Where are you? We are worldwide on this forum, someone may be able to recommend you to someone near you.

[trickytrip]

In reference to my above post,

http://www.animalvetcenter.com/neutering.htm

Say what you will,
My opinion on this is just that, my opinion. I feel spaying and neutering is important simply because there are far too many unwanted dogs in this country (US). Look at how many unwanted border collies and other pure breeds that end up getting euthanized every year. I don't mean to be doom and gloom but facts are facts. If you read the link you will also see that prosatitis happens in 90% of unneutered males, that is extrememly high.

[Tassle]

(09-07-2010 12:44 PM)trickytrip Wrote:  In reference to my above post,

http://www.animalvetcenter.com/neutering.htm

Say what you will,
My opinion on this is just that, my opinion. I feel spaying and neutering is important simply because there are far too many unwanted dogs in this country (US). Look at how many unwanted border collies and other pure breeds that end up getting euthanized every year. I don't mean to be doom and gloom but facts are facts. If you read the link you will also see that prosatitis happens in 90% of unneutered males, that is extrememly high.

I have found that it actually depends on the studies you read.

Studies I have read have stated that Prostate issues are actually higher in Neutered males that entire. The only thing Entire males are more likely to get is testicular cancer (affects 1% of entire males).
Depending on who does the study seems to depend on the results. The only impartial study I have found could discover no major evidence one way or the other for males. (Different story for females)

I agree that neutering can help prevent unwanted pups, but so does responsible dog ownership, which means training your entire dog.

Irresponsible breeding will continue, sadly it is rarely accidental and often people wanting pups from their dogs as they would like to go through the experience or feel that their dogs are nice etc...
I will not be getting Gabe neutered unless there is a medical reason for doing so, and I expect I will go the same way with Zeff.

[joanne/shads]

Im also in the UK and while there are unwanted dogs wherever you are it cannot be put at the door of responsible owners. Non of the dogs i grew up with or have owned have been neutered or spayed, non have had health issues as a result of this and no unintentional breeding has occured. our female dogs have been kept at home when in season and our male dogs have been kept under control. I admit that in my case it has been easier as i have only owned one dog at a time but i think as with many other subjects reports can be found to support both sides of any argument. At the end of the day you have to trust your own judgement after looking at as much information as possible and go with whats right for your situation.

[Vicky]

Both of my dogs have been spayed, these are my first dogs and both female so i haven't had a male dog yet, but when i get a male dog i will get mine done just because i know it can cause fights and i have seen what been attacked has done to my bc, who knows what i would choose if not, my Lurcher didn't get spayed until she was 2 and a half and my bc got spayed when she was 18 months.

[Tassle]

(09-07-2010 02:23 PM)Vicky Wrote:  Both of my dogs have been spayed, these are my first dogs and both female so i haven't had a male dog yet, but when i get a male dog i will get mine done just because i know it can cause fights and i have seen what been attacked has done to my bc, who knows what i would choose if not, my Lurcher didn't get spayed until she was 2 and a half and my bc got spayed when she was 18 months.

Thats a very odd thing to say! Many entire male dogs who have been properly socialised are more placid that neutered ones! Gabe has been attacked by many (usually neutered) males, all he does is walk away or stand on them if they persist until I can help.

As someone who has seen as much damage don by neutering as staying entire I would have to say that people should always go on a case by case basis.

[Vicky]

I know they can be and i have met friendly entire dogs, i wasn't trying to say they was nasty and go around fighting or anything.

[joanne/shads]

I can honestly say ive not had any aggression problems with any of my dogs other than a brief snarl or snap if another dog has got too personal but then they have always been on the lead around dogs they do not know well and its a little early to tell with Shadow. I think I would only consider it if it was in Shadows best interest health wise or if all else fails and hes turned out to be aggressive.

[goldcreek]

(09-07-2010 02:28 PM)Tassle Wrote:  I would have to say that people should always go on a case by case basis.

I agree.

I have listened to a lot of arguments from both sides. My own personal choice is to leave my dogs intact unless there is a compelling behavioral or medical reason to alter them.




As to the problem between these two dogs, I would like to second this

Quote:I personally would be looking for issues such as possessiveness (resource Guarding - toys/food/places/people) before rushing in to neutering.

Or perhaps there is miscommunication between the two. Sometimes a dog who is friendly but too forward will get aggressive responses from other dogs. Not saying that's the case here, just an example.

Whatever the case, I would not tolerate him snapping at your other dog. Make sure the pug is not instigating it too.

It is tough to offer advice over the internet, when we can't actually see the interaction between the dogs and the way you and your family behave with them. Probably best to get a qualified behaviorist who can see them in their home.